[11:28] Lance Lenoirre: hey there! [11:28] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): Hi [11:28] Lance Lenoirre: early for the meeting :-) [11:29] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): yes a bit [11:30] Lance Lenoirre: hello! [11:30] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Hey ya'll [11:30] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I'm early sorry [11:30] Lance Lenoirre: me too, no problem [11:59] Havoc (spicystrung): hi all ^^ [11:59] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Hello Havoc :( [11:59] Lance Lenoirre: heya! [12:00] Lance Lenoirre: well we are right on time it seems! perhaps others will show up as we go forward [12:02] Lance Lenoirre: let's see what's on the agenda, have a few things to announce and then we can pick it up from there [12:03] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): Hey [12:03] Lance Lenoirre: so, first things first... anyone updated to the latest version? they should be much smaller and the releases are much cleaner [12:04] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): I have not updated [12:04] Havoc (spicystrung): not yet. [12:04] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): I have bots still on 9 [12:04] Havoc (spicystrung): i'm on 150.174 [12:04] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): Sorry 10 * [12:04] Lance Lenoirre: it is now a single bundle, with just the files related to Corrade and every "dll" bundled in so they do not pollute the directory [12:05] Lance Lenoirre: it is one of the main design goals to slim down the bot to a tool and not much more [12:06] Lance Lenoirre: we have heard some complaints about Nucleus [12:06] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I have the bot on the latest, still the age old bug that I've encountered with Websockets happen. I do agree that there's a smaller file footprint though [12:07] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): The nucleus continuously reloading was annoying [12:07] Lance Lenoirre: what sort of bug is that? the testing harness uses the https://grimore.org/secondlife/scripted_agents/corrade/tutorials/websockets_server and it continuously sends a "version" command [12:08] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): If you connect, at first, it works, but if you were to disconnect it no longer sends event data . i.e group chat , ims [12:09] Lance Lenoirre: so after connecting, disconnect and try to reconnect again? with new WebSocket... ? [12:09] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): yes [12:09] Lance Lenoirre: right, but it does not disconnect if the connection is maintained? [12:10] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I guess the best way of explaining is, it only accepts one WebSocket client [12:11] Lance Lenoirre: as i understand from what you are saying: the first connect succeeds, but if you disconnect, then you won't be able to reconnect again? or is the problem larger with multiple concurrent clients not being able to connect? [12:12] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I haven't tried multiple concurrent connections so that's definitely something I should try, however yes, once you connect, if you disconnect you are unable to connect again [12:12] Lance Lenoirre: awesome, added that to the notes then, will try to reproduce and fix that issue [12:13] Lance Lenoirre: it is probably something to do with how Corrade maps web socket clients to in-world groups [12:14] Lance Lenoirre: okay [12:14] Lance Lenoirre: coming back to Nucleus, what seems to be the problem? [12:15] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Nucleus appears to reload every time you save a setting. I have to re-enter the nucleus password. [12:15] Lance Lenoirre: right [12:15] Lance Lenoirre: that can be clarified i think [12:15] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): 2021-05-29 15:14:09,845 WARN Corrade - Warning : WebSocketsServer : ProcessClientBinding@544 : An error occurred while reading or writing messages : Read operation on WebSocket stream is failed. More detailed information in inner exception. [12:16] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: that's great, i can even copy that, thanks [12:17] Lance Lenoirre: the problem with Nucleus is that it has to find a way to securely transmit a configuration between the browser and Corrade, the reloads and password prompts are due to that... symmetric encryption is used to encrypt the configuration file as it is transmitted between Corrade/Nucleus and the webbrowser [12:18] Lance Lenoirre: so there are few alternatives, short of dropping encryption entirely and relying on the userbase to generate SSL certificates and/or use Nucleus only over secure channels [12:20] Lance Lenoirre: the problem is that generating SSL certificates is rather steep for most users, it is finecky process that requires some knowledge, even on Windows there are various certificate stores and the certificates must be generated and installed in a particular fashion [12:22] Lance Lenoirre: it would be a terrible user experience to have to generate certificates compared to typing a password [12:22] Lance Lenoirre: perhaps the prompt could be reduced in case the user is already logged in [12:22] n32d gave you Corrade Boom. [12:23] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d ty [12:23] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): why not use the browser session store to store the one time use? [12:24] Lance Lenoirre: i suppose that's some extra security, i've had a colleague that made a big fuss and published papers on stolen browser cookies hehe, personally i do not care much since nobody touches my own laptop but apparently there are people out there for whom it is a thing [12:25] Lance Lenoirre: that is why the second password prompt shows up when loading the configuration, it wants it again to make sure that you DO have access [12:25] Havoc (spicystrung): What about getting Corrade to generate the config file on the server? Why do you must make it travel between the browser and Corrade? [12:26] Havoc (spicystrung): Would it make things easier? simpler? [12:26] Lance Lenoirre: that's the current working, but Nucleus must display the configuration so it needs to fetch it from Nucleus/Corrade and when it fetches it, it fetches it encrypted with your Nucleus password as the symmetric key [12:28] Lance Lenoirre: HTTP is non-persistent, so the configuration file must be sent over from Corrade/Nucleus to the browser - even if Nucleus just generated a new configuration, it will still have to be sent to Corrade to create the configuration file and apply the settings [12:29] Lance Lenoirre: the password prompts when loading / saving the configuration could be eliminated, by relying on the initial login cookie and hoping that nobody steals the cookies :) [12:30] Havoc (spicystrung) hides the cookie jar [12:30] Lance Lenoirre: however, you have to realize that this process can actually be very sensitive: Corrade has the "system" and "execute" permissions for some commands such as "execute", if someone MITMs and changes the configuration, they could possibly use Corrade to take over the entire machine [12:31] Lance Lenoirre: and unfortunately, we have heard of users running Corrade as root! if "system" and "execute" permissions are enabled, that is a huge opportunity right htere [12:32] Lance Lenoirre: Nucleus uses standard HTTP POST / GET to do all the work so communication between the browser and Corrade must be encrypted; which is a second problem, i suppose, because your credentials can leak [12:33] Lance Lenoirre: we just found that the compromise between asking end users to generate certificates and just entering a password a few more times was the best way to go while balancing user experience and security [12:34] Lance Lenoirre: but, if your cookies are all locked up :) I suppose we can eliminate the password prompts when load / committing the configuration and it will load the cookie from the browser :) [12:35] Lance Lenoirre: there have been some recent changes to Nucleus: right now it runs in parallel with Corrade so Nucleus will not shut down anymore, it is also reduced to a configuration tool, which is what it was really meant to be; more on the lines of making Corrade minimal [12:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I did see there's a certificate.html file that generates a cert file for you which is handy but there's no doc for it. I just did it by tinkering. Since Corrade already has a DB , why not just use that ? It's interesting because a lot of webapps simply just use JWT (myself included) and unless you're giving the salt away it's pretty standard security. [12:36] Lance Lenoirre: n32d: right, that file was an attempt to streamline the process of generating self-signed certificates for MQTT, TCP, WebSockets maybe... [12:37] Lance Lenoirre: that's what the certificate.html was about [12:37] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Yes, which in itself is a *CENSORED* and a half to get sorted (but that's all on me) [12:37] Lance Lenoirre: it was never activated though, it was a work in progress [12:39] Lance Lenoirre: the certificate path unfortunately is not the way to go, different OSes handle certificates differently, so even if Nucleus / javascript can generate a certificate, it would have to be downloaded by the browser, then installed in the right certificate store, then Nucleus would have to reload to jump on SSL/TLS, etc... [12:40] Lance Lenoirre: so perhaps we will eliminate the prompts when the configuration si loaded and then saved back [12:40] Lance Lenoirre: and rely on browser data to be secure and not shared [12:40] Lance Lenoirre: noted down, something to look at.... [12:42] Lance Lenoirre: in essence, Nucleus is just meant to be a cross-platform configuration tool and no more; everything else should be done via Corrade commands... [12:43] Lance Lenoirre: ok, let me know if we can move on [12:43] Havoc (spicystrung): fine with that. [12:44] Lance Lenoirre: right, so the next big move will be to remove RLV from Corrade and provide a standalone tool to emulate RLV [12:45] Lance Lenoirre: the main problems we are seeing is that there are about 3 or even 4 different RLV-like viewer modifications; we've got Pebble, we've got the original RLV, we've got Lockmeister, we've got another one i cannot even remember its name... [12:46] Lance Lenoirre: with all of them, there are a few issues: Corrade is not sentient :) so Corrade will not attempt to unfasten itself on its own good will and most of the RLV API deals mainly with "restrictions" while the actual RLV commands are only a few: sit, tp to a location, stand, unwear, wear, attach, detach, say and that's about it... [12:47] Lance Lenoirre: so we thought to cut RLV out and offer a platform agnostic app, just like the group discord bridge that will implement those few RLV commands [12:47] Lance Lenoirre: those that actually do something, the rest are just restrictions, like restrictions to chat on local... but for a scripted agent, it is highly unlikely for Corrade to start talking on its own :) [12:48] Lance Lenoirre: that also opens up the opportunity for people to create their own RLV harnesses and support Pebble RLV or Lockmeister and others [12:49] Lance Lenoirre: Corrade alreay has over 300 commands and about 100 notifications so implementing RLV should be fairly straightforward even with the already existing API [12:49] Lance Lenoirre: any thoughts on RLV being removed / offered as a standalone application? [12:50] Havoc (spicystrung): I don't use RLV, so if it makes the corrade zip smaller, I'm all up for it. [12:51] Lance Lenoirre: i think it's more about deduplicating efforts, while Corrade grows, RLV grows as well and given that you should be able to implement commands like sit, stand, tp, say with Corrade commands, you might as well implement RLV itself since the API for "doing stuff" is slim compared to restrictions that Corrade will not even try to defeat [12:52] Lance Lenoirre: on that note, the design for C11 is to be very slim :) and yes, taking some things out is precisely what we're doing, back from C9 days when Corrade had a module to interact with facebook, twitter and a lot of other stuff that was not necessary [12:53] Lance Lenoirre: right now, the results are pretty good, the current release eliminates the file spam, runs natively on various platforms [12:53] Lance Lenoirre: on that note, if you are able to, you can check out the ARM AARCH64 build which should run on ARM64 :) [12:54] Lance Lenoirre: moving on to the next item [12:54] Lance Lenoirre: we have heard some complaints about country bans [12:54] Lance Lenoirre: yet nobody asked us about it, haha :) [12:54] Lance Lenoirre: a whole lot of chatter but no questions asked! [12:55] Lance Lenoirre: so to clarify, i'd like to link up what was aid previously [12:55] Lance Lenoirre: Corrade in C9 and C10 used to be very large, it had Facebook / Twitter posting, it had some NLP processing, AI built-in, etc... [12:56] Lance Lenoirre: amongst those features was the ability to detect countries and spoken language [12:56] Lance Lenoirre: obviously, it never really worked reliably, it provided a probability to match the country code [12:56] Lance Lenoirre: so when we moved to C11, we batch-removed all those features, but some API pages and even the Corrade code base still had some of that built in [12:57] Lance Lenoirre: @jym reported to us that the bot would not start if the website was not online and we removed the code [12:57] Lance Lenoirre: some of the API pages were updated as well, the "local" notification for example had a "language" parameter, which had to be removed since it does not exist anymore [12:58] Lance Lenoirre: so that was the case of the country blacklist [12:59] Lance Lenoirre: we will continue to remove and slim down as much as possible, the ideal is to just be a quick tool that you can hook up to and be just a bridge between SL and RL [12:59] Lance Lenoirre: any thoughts? [13:00] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Sorry for drudging up the old RLV topic, I had to fix nvim lol. So, my only thing i can think of the reason why people like the RLV aspect is that the bot can wear an object and said object can then be controlled via RLV. No scripting required. Some people (at least those I've seen) don't necessary have much scripting knowledge and just want things to work out of the box. [13:01] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Sign up avatar, place avatar on sim, dress it up get rlv stuff and then BAM. Done. [13:01] Lance Lenoirre: @nd32d yes, although, even so, Corrade has a movement HUD on marketplace that does, just as it is, way more than what RLV could ever do... [13:01] Lance Lenoirre: yes, that was one argument we heard, that there are more in-world items with RLV than in-world items with Corrade commands [13:02] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Myself, I don't mind it being removed however, RLV has one standard protocol. There's older systems like lockmeister but to be fair, that's not on you to implementconsidering it still follows RLV guidlines [13:02] Lance Lenoirre: if there are no more comments, we can go to questions and wrap up this meeting :) perhaps we will schedule others - it is important though to use the communication channels, bugs.grimore.org (even for support questions if so desired) or messaging us on Discord... it is a bad idea to just brood over rumours and various tidbits of information [13:02] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): This is why viewers have RLV and not "lockmeitster" built in . It's just a standard that was created. [13:03] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: on the very recent firestorm, I have seen some settings about lockmeister, some tickboxes, so i guess that is part of an RLV subtype too [13:04] Lance Lenoirre: i can fish it up i think [13:05] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I just did a pull request and I couldn't find it. Although my build is failing at urllparser lol~ [13:05] Lance Lenoirre: the main idea is that Corrade would fit between SL and the viewer, so Corrade would work at a lower level than RLV and if you wanted to implement say, Pebble RLV, you could do so just by using Corrade commands and notifications [13:06] Lance Lenoirre: to be fair, it should be an easy task, RLV has like 5 "commands" at best, all the others are restrictions "do not alow the avatar to talk", but if Corrade starts talking out of the blue, you're in biggger trouble :D [13:07] Lance Lenoirre: in closing, we are preparing an application for Corrade that will allow you to chat IMs and in groups, it is a windows application only and perhaps it'll grow over time [13:08] Havoc (spicystrung): One daft question... [13:08] Lance Lenoirre: sure :) please go ahead [13:09] Havoc (spicystrung): You seem to be spending lot of time and energy on that project. What motivates you to keep going? [13:09] Lance Lenoirre: ( here are some of the RLV settings from firestorm https://scratch.grimore.org/cwuzzcy3 ) [13:09] Lance Lenoirre: on Corrade? [13:09] Havoc (spicystrung): ya [13:10] Lance Lenoirre: various things, we are both using it for some of our own stuff and we have associates that rely on it [13:10] Lance Lenoirre: for instance this sim is a game that is entirely automated by Corrade and we were partly involved in developing it [13:11] Lance Lenoirre: Corrade is very stable right now though, so updates are ... not that time consuming, there are corrections, strengthening, security additions, conformance to specifications... [13:11] Lance Lenoirre: it has been around for 10 years+ :) so there is not much more to develop [13:12] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I suppose I have a question that i know the answer of and it's a tad touchy [13:12] Lance Lenoirre: please do [13:13] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Why close the source? As it's written is C# a lot of people can contribute and close bugs faster. It started off as open source, I guess a lot of the gripe comes from that? [13:13] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I would love to sit through issues and help submit PR request for fixes personally [13:15] Lance Lenoirre: depends, informally, there are a few reasons that we do not really state: 1.) everything up to C10 has been opensource, for about 8 years or so and during that time there have been no contributions (ok, 2 external contributions that modified 2 lines) 2.) we personally contribute to libremetaverse even though we have our own fork, so we do have outbound contributions regarding OS 3.) IP theft is a problem for us because we're small, a company like smartbots would easily take over our features, implement them and then sell our IP for a buck to a wider audience that will then have to indirectly pay for our work [13:16] Lance Lenoirre: on the other hand, all provided sources are even more open that opensource :) so if you, let's say, want to redesign Nucleus, please feel free and also tell us about it because we're happy to promote it [13:18] Lance Lenoirre: but without the ability to enforce our IP, you would all be using SmartBots now not even knowing that there is a "free" project Corrade that does all that SmartBots do! we do not advertise or slap stickers on all walls so even after 10 years+ the userbase that even knows about Corrade is very slim! [13:20] Lance Lenoirre: hello @Jym, the session has ended but i am still available if you want to chime in; we did discuss the country ban so probably we'll provide a notecard with the office hour session [13:21] Lance Lenoirre: so those are the main reasons for not being OS again [13:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Sorry I'm late, I wasn't sure which time zone the meeting was meant to be based, the liks for the poll suggest 2-3pm it's only 121pm SL [13:21] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I suppose, sure there were no contributions at the time, but SL has grown so much in the past 8 years. I guess what I'm saying is, why not just make it open source. Add a plugin functionality. Allow people to implement the features they want i.e have an interface to extend to. If I don't want to have the bundled TCP or MQTT then I don't have to have said plugin [13:23] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm ok with the closed source honestly, I'd break things if it were "too" open, but the problem I had the other day with all my bots logging out and stuck in a login loops saying something about country bans.... That's something I am not fond of [13:23] Lance Lenoirre: that is unfortunately not an option right now; however given JIT, only the code that you use is active :) so if you only care about TCP and only use TCP, then you can rest assured that MQTT, WebSockets and the rest of the features are not even compiled nor executed :) [13:24] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): As for country bans, not even sure why it would be necessary. Especially considering it my country were on that ban list, I'd just rent a server in a country that is allowed [13:24] Lance Lenoirre: @jym: in short with what was discussed, the country ban was an old "feature" of Corrade being able to detect countries and even stuff like spoken / typed language on local chat or IMs... it was there since C10 but was removed in C11 yet some of the code for those features was never removed... the country "ban" was in fact a blacklist, of countries that cannot be detected... [13:25] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): well there's a blacklist of users/uuids and keys too [13:25] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): but that was never mentioend [13:26] Lance Lenoirre: concerning the extensibility: you can always file a bug report if you would like a feature added, however, right now in what concerns SL, there are very few features that could be added, we're spanning a bunch of commands and still growing slowly; however if you do have a feature request, please pipe it though [13:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): 1 thing I would like to mention is there seems to be an issue with Nucleus, I will submit a ticket later as long as I remember to do so. but I cna't use Nucleus, whether it creating a new bot ro modifying an existing one [13:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): This happens on my Pi and CentOS server [13:27] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: usually that should boil down to permission errors, however Corrade is can be very chatty so the logs should indicate what happened [13:27] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I don't want to ruffle feathers and I think that things that were mentioned were alrigtht. Some solid stuff , I just wish that the project would have stayed true to it's roots instead of just locking the source and somewhat running with it I guess. I just don't want it to go through the Darling Brody stage [13:28] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: you mean you are afraid it will go commercial? [13:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'll just have to submit a ticket, the CentOS server user is root, permissions are definitely not an issue, Pi server, is user Pi with root privileges [13:29] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: please never run as root :) one mistake with "system" and "execute" and someone in SL could take over your server :) [13:29] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): In a sense yes. [13:29] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The server is in my home, so it's not a huge concern [13:30] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: Corrade itself will always be free, at the very best, we might make side-projects that connect with Corrade and those might be commercial, so we do not exclude publishing, say a "Corrade Controller Application" that would be commercial [13:31] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): So, would people in the blacklist be able to use that though? [13:31] Lance Lenoirre: n32d: or offer a service, like rent-a-bot - however, even so, we would not like to compete against users / devs that use Corrade, so aside from "example templates" we are weary of creating software on top of Corrade because a user might want to create an application [13:32] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and I'm sorry if it comes off that way I'm just wondering as to why such a great project that exists that was open source ended up in closed source. Some projects take years [13:32] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Look at vim.. Some people picked it up, made a form and now nvim is a thing [13:33] Lance Lenoirre: on the topic of blacklists, there has to be some sort of moderation - i cannot name the exact group, but one of the owners of a famous jazz bar in SL just outright swore at us when we refused to "do work for him" [13:34] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Makes sense, I wasn't trying to outstep or anything I just curious about it [13:34] Lance Lenoirre: @nd32d: you can check the above points, IP theft is the main problem and it hurts both us and ourselves... projects like vim or the linux kernel are supported by a ton of foundation money such that they have the ability to enforce IP... if you look at our plagiarism pages, a lot of the items we created in SL have just been relabled and sold for a buck [13:34] Lance Lenoirre: both you and us* [13:34] Lance Lenoirre: since it's like story time :) a few weeks ago, one of our developers got a message that "the tip jar is not working" [13:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I actually did look at that, but I also saw there was a page that assisted users on compiling their own viewer with GOD MODE abilities and exporting animations and such. [13:36] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): On the topic of open/closed source as n32d is mentioning, I'd be curious to know why when the decision to close the source also resulted in the removal of what was open source. I don't mind keeping some of my bots up to date, but I would also like access to what was open, an archive or something, for bots that I'm still running on c9 and /or c10 in case of hard drive failure or something (just an example) [13:36] Lance Lenoirre: so we investigated, and it turned out the tipjar that we offered for free and OS, had been taken by an SL user, put up on marketplace inside a statue and then sold for a buck... there was no mention of Wizardry and Steamworks even if the script was GPL... so if you mean opensource, you hopefully mean opensource as conforming to a license and not just slave labour :) [13:36] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): https://grimore.org/secondlife/modified_viewers [13:37] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: there is such a page, yes, however that is knowledge and can be used both ways such as Linden finding a way to prevent the exploit :) [13:37] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/787068092093431839/847293629663019008/unknown.png [13:37] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/787068092093431839/847293994119069786/unknown.png [13:38] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: it's a good viewer, highly recommended :) [13:39] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Sorry, this definitely got derailed an @jym said it best [13:39] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: laws do not work (yet) on a Minority Report basis, over the years we have gotten some complains and some DMCA requests, to which we have complied to, you can get a list here: https://grimore.org/wiki:copyright [13:39] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I'd love to see the archives. I like Corrade and what it has to offer. [13:40] Lance Lenoirre: if you have a DMCA claim or a GDPR request (which reminds me, I must ask) then please do forward it to us :) using a third-party viewer, even if it is famous or infamous for having capabilities to grief is not against the law [13:41] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Personally I'd love to see it grow. As a developer standpoint, I know that there's no appreciation as a dev. So I'll say. Thank you for offering such a great project [13:41] Lance Lenoirre: on the other hand, none of these issues have been resolved, some of them even taken up with Linden: https://grimore.org/wiki:plagiarism [13:42] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: in what regards the old sources, there is no special reason why, i guess we got bored of them... C9 and C10 have been at times resource hogs and getting out of "mono" was an orgasmic pleasure :) we deleted the old bots with passion and joy! [13:42] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I hear ya, I know what its like. I had a full perm script stolen and resold on MP [13:43] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: well, we have that but 1000x fold, all of the items mentioned there are still up on MP :) we are happy to publish GPL, but we do not do slave labour :) [13:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I do find it odd, that I had suggested .net core a few years ago and was told it would never happen and here we are today with c11... [13:43] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): lol~ [13:44] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: .NET core is still a developing framework, at the time you asked, net core was very very minimal, "Hello world" was most of what it could do [13:45] Lance Lenoirre: now with net5.0, the folks at Microsoft have really got the party started and it was possible to port Corrade over [13:45] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): but c11 came out with .net core 3.1 [13:46] Lance Lenoirre: yes, that was the biggest step, but @jym mentioned it probably way before that when .net core was at 1.0 :) [13:46] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ahh ok [13:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think it was .net core 2 [13:46] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): How many devs work on Corrade? [13:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I waited until it was usable to make the suggestion [13:46] Lance Lenoirre: as i said, we span 10 years plus haha! we still see changelog entries from 2016 and wonder how old it is... [13:47] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: on and off, about 5 or 6, including myself but the "work" is really split up into various bits an pieces, like "support" is still considered "work" even if you do not touch the core code, or creating LSL templates [13:49] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Welp, this has been inspiring and I appreciate the answers to my questions. [13:49] Lance Lenoirre: usable is realtive, there is a lot of code that is difficult to port between platforms, Linux and Windows have very different internal structures, Corrade could never, say, be ported to net2.0 because the HTTP server, for example, would not make it [13:50] Lance Lenoirre: thanks for coming @n32d :) [13:50] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): So do you all rotate positions in SL? and decide on how best to provide support? It was nice to have a group/discord we could associate with each other and help each other when someone from your "team" wasn't available. But one day, everyone got ejected and discord got locked down. [13:51] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I mean I can understand if it was because of too many off-topic issues [13:52] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I don't mind using the ticket system, but helping each other was also a great advatage [13:53] Lance Lenoirre: moderation is a problem, we would need to allocate someone to "take care of the group" whereas we prefer to stick to solving issues and developing [13:53] Lance Lenoirre: the ticket system in the meanwhile has eveolved in bugs and support :) we still get support tickets; got one a while ago about touching HUDs on other avatars... [13:54] Lance Lenoirre: that is a bit tricky [13:54] Lance Lenoirre: we have been discussing the country bans and even if i hope that the issue is clear now, nobody bothered to ask what that is about and why (ask us, that is) so instead we got wind of all sorts of speculation going on in the corrade supports group... [13:55] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Well I'm hoping maybe the group could be a thing, user support rather than dev support is sometimes faster and better depending on certain situations [13:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I can understand country bans if it's necessary, no reason to ask why, you have your reasons. [13:56] Lance Lenoirre: ultimately, you always get better support by asking the source :) and we encourage you to do that [13:56] Lance Lenoirre: fortunately, discord has message retention, so if you ask on discord, the message never goes away and can be seen even later [13:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's like, some websites I have aren't allowed t be viewed in the UK because I won't add a cookie disclosure. [13:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Am I going to add a cookie disclosure??? Nope... I don't live there [13:57] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): So country bans are 100% understandable with the right reasoning [13:57] KelseyFlainn: Sorry, for coming in late if you've already discussed this, but you've had to ban entire countries? From using Corrade or from using the website? [13:58] Lance Lenoirre: there is a risk for groups to become echo chambers, where people talk, cross talk, over inflate on rumors in the absence of an official statement, or just degenerate in a hate group :) so without moderation, we're not sure we can do that... [13:58] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: no, the discussion was coming from an old feature added in C10 that got ported over to C11 without being fully removed and it crashed the bot if the website was not online [13:59] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Just a thought, maybe not open the group entirely, reopen it so that members can't use group chat, but allow yourself to send group notices when a new release is available? [14:00] KelseyFlainn: oh gotcha... Wait, that's an odd feature. Why was that in there in the first place? I thought Corrade was entirely self hosted? Why would it be dependent on the corrade website being up? [14:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm much more likely to read a group notice than I am to open discord [14:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [14:01] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: it had the ability to detect local chat, IP addresses, had Facebook and Twitter integration, etc. it used the website to attempt to resolve countries that were not resolvable using the internal database [14:01] Lance Lenoirre: @jym: ok, we can consider a closed group, announcement system like on Discord :) [14:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): At the least, that would be a good start. I'd appreciate notices [14:02] Lance Lenoirre: just for notices and announcements [14:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I can't speak for everyone, but that's enough for me [14:02] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ yeah [14:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm not a fan of discord, so I use it only when I have no other options [14:03] Havoc (spicystrung): same here. I use discord solely for corrade. [14:04] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I will say, when I do have to use discord, whomever I direct message has always been great and typically fixes things quite fast [14:04] Lance Lenoirre: not many of us are very socially literate :) there are some things we do not know how to deal with, for example we have heard about one user that acts very nicely to us, but in the corrade support group always tries to "ruffle feathers" :) strange that people are that way... we have even promoted him a lot in the past, including sending his works to some nice people... only to find out that the person has been speaking a lot of trash when we turned our backs... [14:05] Lance Lenoirre: and we would be back to "blacklists" haha! [14:05] Lance Lenoirre: if you see the conundrum [14:06] Lance Lenoirre: so we said, let's focus on support and development, we provide support via different channels, and then people are free to idk, like us, hate us, create love/hate groups and we are not involved in the whole mess [14:06] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Will office hours become a thing? if so, is there a way to just let people know the proper time it begins? like I seriously thought it should have began 6 minutes ago [14:06] Lance Lenoirre: which is sensible, it would be insensible (and would require someone to always be present) to have to slap down every rumour or miss-information that some users post... [14:07] KelseyFlainn: I'm sorry, I'm still shocked at what you just said about the app talking to the Corrade website. So, Corrade was collecting data on its users? That is incredibly disconcerting. [14:07] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: no, there was no data collected, there was data retrieved FROM the website [14:07] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: hopefully yes, if you enjoy this, we can schedule a few more periodic office hours, weekly or monthly [14:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): @Kelsey, the only thing "collected" was the IP the software was run on, if you open google.com, they grab that info too, as do all websites, they just wanted to make sure the location of your IP was not a banned country [14:08] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: the website is supposed to translate the time zones automatically [14:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): @Lance, Yea, I seen that in the fine print, after you said the office hours were techincally over [14:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [14:09] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: that data was not collected, even if it was private information, it was retrieved by Corrade [14:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Collected, just not stored** [14:10] Lance Lenoirre: https://strawpoll.com/33d7ph415 - this was supposed to be the last timeslot on the 29th [14:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): just like any website [14:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): @Lance, I didn't scroll down enough to see - All times are displayed in your local time zone: Central Daylight Time [14:11] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn Corrade did have a feedback feature, that actually collected data, but that feature was removed... if you are curious though, you can check our privacy statement at https://grimore.org/wiki:privacy [14:12] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: it's what we said, one of us should have been in the group and corrected the misinformation you got :) constantly watching lol, which is something we'd rather not do [14:12] KelseyFlainn: Yeah, I've read it. [14:12] Lance Lenoirre: awesome [14:12] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I just used the link from your discord announcement [14:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But the participant list was too large and I didn't scroll down to see the times are local [14:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): local to me specifically [14:13] Lance Lenoirre: no matter, at least we know that office hours are appreciated and we can then schedule more time slots if needed :) [14:13] KelseyFlainn: But considering the instability that WaS has had just over the past year keeping its website up and running, that combined with the fact that this wasn't previously disclosued, makes me quite uncomfortable. [14:14] Lance Lenoirre: so I have noted here, create an announcement group in SL [14:14] KelseyFlainn: Since the source is closed, we just have to take your word on it. [14:14] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): the last year?? this is ongoing for several years sadly [14:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The website is actually "up" more often than it used to be [14:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): this last year or 2 [14:15] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: what instability are you talking about? the services have improved consistently over the years [14:15] KelseyFlainn: That is patently false. The website has been down for long periods of time. [14:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): There was a time the website was "down" more than it was "up" [14:15] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: we conform to our privacy policy, i am not sure what you found to be "hidden" [14:16] Havoc (spicystrung): after kira threw in the towel, more precisely. [14:16] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: if you do not like our services, you can stop using them :) there is no need to be disgruntled about a produce you do not like [14:17] Lance Lenoirre: hehe, Kira is way gone, we haven't heard about her for a long while [14:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'd rather remain clueless as to what happened with Kira, but I do miss her. [14:17] KelseyFlainn: Of course I can. that was irrelevant and passive aggressive [14:18] Lance Lenoirre: @KelseyFlainn: we do not do that here, we talk about Corrade, if you want to start an argument, please leave [14:18] KelseyFlainn: We don't do what here? [14:18] KelseyFlainn: Point out when you are being a bully? [14:19] Lance Lenoirre: removed :) it's these sort of things that we'd rather not deal with [14:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): My current viewpoint on Corrade is it's heading in a good direction, it still has bugs, which I need to report, I just wish there was an archive for some of my servers using older versions that are still stable [14:20] Lance Lenoirre: as far as I am concerned, if people do not want to contribute anything productive nor discuss or just want to start an argument, then we are at a loss [14:20] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Just for the record to state... I have no harsh feelings lol. I'm just an advocate for open source and helping.. So I hope I didn't come off like that... [14:21] Lance Lenoirre: we are great advocates for OS too! lol, if you just look at the sheer amount of code, and even aside Corrade, that we have published, it's amazing what we have contributed, just in sheer volume [14:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it, don't replace it" [14:22] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Hence the wanting the archive of c9/c10 [14:22] Lance Lenoirre: however, we like the differentiation between OS as per GPL and all clauses or "stuff that people do for you for free"... [14:23] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): @Jym same. [14:23] Lance Lenoirre: C9 and C10 had very serious bugs, i recall a bug that made Corrade use full CPU after a while [14:23] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Yes that bug was resolved though just before 11 [14:24] Lance Lenoirre: it was also very heavy, C9 and C10 had a bunch of features that were better left to third party applications to do; we are slimming down, so we definitely do not want "post to Facebook" functionality back anytime soon [14:24] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Was it mentioned that c11 also can share resources? [14:24] Lance Lenoirre: and mono was a complete disaster [14:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): unlike it's predecessors? [14:25] Lance Lenoirre: yes, from the point of view of shared libraries [14:26] Lance Lenoirre: the only hesitation we have is to remove SQLite or not to remove SQLite, it is very useful for scripters but really should not be part of the core... [14:26] Havoc (spicystrung): I use heavily sqlite. [14:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Will there be a time when it could be like (hate to say it) PikkuBot? Everything in the directory is shared, but runs as it's own process. [14:26] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): So the "post to facebook" was this a feature underlined in the actual code we didn't see? Because I also saw that there was a fingerprinting module too. [14:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I stopped using the SQLite, there was a time, I think Kira had removed it, while it was something I was using. I "threw" in the towel so to speak and got a VPS after that. Then it was added back [14:28] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: not right now, the idea of having multiple instances per a single process is inherently broken when you consider how avatars work in SL and ultimately, the only real benefit is the cache (ie: one avatar cached something that another avatar can fetch from the cache) [14:28] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): If you want slim, I think the best way of doing it would have been, create the client, that has an interface for extensibility and then that way anyone that knows anything of C# can build off that. Add the features they would like to have instead of waiting / suggesting features. It's a matter of wanting to keep control of the project which I totally understand . You don't want to implement bugs, but in your EULA do you state that Corrade is not liable for any umm.. events that occur while using it [14:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I would suggest keeping SQLite though, it is a great feature to keep alive [14:30] Lance Lenoirre: @nd32d: two things here: 1.) yes, it was part of the code, just like language detection and country bans/ country resolution, you were able to detect what language was spoken or what country an IP /website comes from 2.) the fingerprinting module was used by Nucleus, as an additional security check to be able to lock the session to a single browser, for security reasons (ie: someone on your network MITMing the browser session) but it was removed [14:30] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ahh ok ty [14:31] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: well, right now you can implement the database itself, the only reason it was there is because it was convenient for scripters but a programmer should be able to create a database [14:32] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I appreciate it [14:33] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: it is not about control of the code per se, but rather about protecting IP, hooking into Corrade via C# does not meet the design goals right now and IoT, or async-like ways of access is what we're going for; the screenshot you provided earlier is a viewer created in Node-Red :) there is nothing to code (ok, perhaps a little) but so elegant when you do not have to write code [14:34] Lance Lenoirre: basically we are going for: we provide an API to "do stuff in SL" - and that excludes, say, posting to Facebook or detecting the text language [14:34] Lance Lenoirre: or even implement RLV yourself based on the Corrade API, since the API should be lower than RLV [14:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Lance, I really appreciate the topics being answerd. I'm not trying to harp or jump on the project. It's a great idea. I was just adding some bit of topics to discuss since everyone was quiet and maybe others had some concerns and didn't want to voice it [14:37] Lance Lenoirre: haha! but you are welcome to do so - closed source, or open source, we always wondered why there are not more marketplace items that involve Corrade in some way; similarly, Nucleus is source, and via the license, it means the source is open, so if you wanted to, you could redesign Nucleus as you see fit [14:37] Lance Lenoirre: the license does allow you to commercialize projects based on Corrade :) [14:38] Lance Lenoirre: this sim, another RLV-like sim and one more game that i am aware run using Corrade, so there is that [14:38] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): This day and age, I'd be afraid to release anything OS [14:39] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): There are far more that will disrespect the license than will do what's asked [14:39] Lance Lenoirre: haha! well, informally, and not really part of the discussion, but OS is only really good for large companies :) for small companies, OS does not work, not if you want to have a payroll and paid wages or any sort of profit [14:40] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Anything I've written for Corrade is typically closed source, if it were open source anyone could see that I credited WaS for the was udf's [14:40] Lance Lenoirre: i cannot plagiarize Visual Studio Code by Microsoft, for example, because, well, 1.) people will laugh at me claiming that i made it 2.) Microsoft has all the resources necessary to enforce their open source license and sue me if i do [14:41] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But anything outside the udf's was my code from scratch usually [14:41] Lance Lenoirre: well via the license, you can reuse anything that Wizardry and Steamworks made under any other license iff. it involves Corrade :) [14:41] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Careful is you use VSC... [14:41] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I don't think anyone would want to claim ownership of making a VSC clone. The telemetry is horrible. The software itself is buggy and a memory hog. [14:42] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Anything written using VSC if it can be proven - belongs to Microsoft [14:42] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): However there is an alternative VSCodium or.. Neovim [14:42] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's in the fine print of the EULA [14:42] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): or whatever [14:42] Lance Lenoirre: there are other examples, i was mainly referring to the fact that IP theft affects smaller companies more than large companies [14:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I understand [14:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): it's also hard to prove IP rights, for say someone like me [14:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): to an extent [14:44] Lance Lenoirre: it affects users too! just as was said before, even in SL, other companies have the necessary funds to advertise, spread the news and acquire new users, so if Corrade did not have its own way of doing things, you might have not been here and might have been using a commercial product without knowing that you have a "free" alternative [14:44] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ [14:45] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I'm an advocate for OS so practically everything I own is OS. [14:45] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think Corrade is better in most cases, the "monetized" company lacks a lot in comparison [14:45] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ agreed [14:45] Lance Lenoirre: just the other day i stumbled on an an ocean-like sim, and they had a bot that just did invites, so i thought, well, this owner now pays for the land + the inviter bot... why not just run Corrade and spare yourself the fees to the inviter bot? [14:46] Lance Lenoirre: i contacted her and well, you know, lady, there's this Corrade bot thing, it's free and stuff... don't need to pay squat... she was like "huh? why didn't i hear of this before?" [14:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): That reminds me of a "product/service" in SL where I seen someone say the "monetized" company is the "Easiest", "Cheapest" and "Most Reliable" bot [14:47] Lance Lenoirre: so it's a competitive market segment, and the actual IP theft damages end users as well, she had no clue there are free alternatives... [14:47] Havoc (spicystrung): I found out about Corrade while searching for "SL bots". That's how I also found out about the other ones as well. I 'd never have heard of any of them before. [14:48] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I might have to agree with "Easiest", but my Corrade running on a Pi, is definitely cheaper, by a long shot, and more reliable, since it doesn't get a daily restart that takes 5 minutes to bring it back online [14:48] Lance Lenoirre: oh right, officially, we do not compete with SmartBots, it's a different beast, SmartBots is a service, Corrade is software; we have advertised for people selling Corrade bots or rent-a-bots in the past [14:48] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Well if you still want to advertise, I charge 349L$ a week lol [14:49] Lance Lenoirre: @spicystrung: yes, it's more of what i was trying to refer to: we do not have the money to advertise allover the place like other companies do; the best we can do is offer an alternative and hope users adopt it... [14:49] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): to use my server [14:49] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: i am not sure if we do advertise for you, but please feel free to send me an NC, i would be glad to pass it on and put it up oin the website [14:49] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): SaaS vs PaaS really [14:49] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think Kira had it up there at one point [14:49] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But it got removed [14:50] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm still on there as a contibuter though , I think [14:50] Lance Lenoirre: hmm, is that where you got the "Butters" name from? haha! [14:50] Lance Lenoirre: well, we are happy to advertise, including products [14:50] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Yea [14:51] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): Oh Butters [14:51] Lance Lenoirre: Corrade is just a thin software client, you can build services on top and we do not care / it is allowed via the license to commercialize the software :) [14:51] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Awe, did I get removed? [14:52] Lance Lenoirre: perhaps you were away for some time? or the services did not work? things change in SL so from time to time it helps teleporting around to see if the projects are still active [14:53] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think the whole section is missing [14:53] Lance Lenoirre: this is a cool thing we love to see: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Ice-Breakers-NPC-Friendly-Game/14681948 [14:54] Lance Lenoirre: L$120, supports NPCs, very cool [14:54] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): used to be a bunch of us listed on the webpage for helping [14:54] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: if you pass me the notecard, i can add it again [14:55] Lance Lenoirre: but the general message is that we advertise for anyone making products with Corrade or just selling / renting Corrade bots [14:55] Havoc (spicystrung): what is NPC? [14:55] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Oh, I'm talking about there was a #Contributer section I think, had me, duck, Casper Warden and a few others [14:55] Lance Lenoirre: @spicystrung: Non-Playable Characters ( like a bot ) [14:55] Havoc (spicystrung): ta [14:55] Lance Lenoirre: welcome [14:56] Lance Lenoirre: so a game like this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Ice-Breakers-NPC-Friendly-Game/14681948 is what we're wondering about, also @jym, if you do sell Corrade services, why not add that to marketplace? i searched for Corrade in the marketplace search but nothing came up except the templates and some games [14:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But yea, I was also in the https://grimore.org/secondlife/scripted_agents/corrade#hosting_providers for a while, but when Kira left a lot of things changed [14:56] Lance Lenoirre: word of mouth is not that reliable, adding your services to MP might be a better option to get people to rent bots from you [14:57] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think I avoided marketplace because it's a service [14:57] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): the MP ToS is quite picky [14:58] Lance Lenoirre: i see, we do not have / know of any active service providers or at least, nobody has recently informed us - except one person, but i do not think they are here... [14:58] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Sadly I read ToS's more often than I want to [14:58] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Word of mouth works pretty great. I had a lot of scripting jobs due to it. MP is .. nvm Jym called it out [14:58] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Also MP take a cut of your sales [14:58] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But Yea, I'll shoot you a notecard with the LM, my shop has been there for like 4-5 years [14:58] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [14:58] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): offering Corrade hosting [14:59] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): as well as PikkuBot [14:59] Lance Lenoirre: if i search on marketplace "group inviter bot" [14:59] Lance Lenoirre: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search%5Bcategory_id%5D=&search%5Bmaturity_level%5D=GMA&search%5Bkeywords%5D=group+invite+bot [14:59] Lance Lenoirre: i find this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SmartBots-Invite-on-Rez-Script-open-source/3854280 amongst the first few results [14:59] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Before Corrade I had an "Unlimited" PikkuBot License so I host them for anyone who wants to use them, but I prefer Corrade [15:00] Lance Lenoirre: 17 reviews, L$5 - it's begging for someone to seize the opportunity :) [15:00] Lance Lenoirre: just saying, hehe! you folks can do what you like [15:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I really need to right the scripts to accept group invites to offer that service [15:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): write** [15:01] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I have everything else ready to go, the pay terminals, on so on [15:01] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lmao [15:01] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I just need the automated group acceptance [15:02] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: i remember someone telling me that you made a system once to verify marketplace items and even provide copy protection... another idea, why don't you sell the system? [15:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I did write that system, the person I wrote it for paid generously too [15:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): She also said to sell it [15:02] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:03] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I really should [15:03] Lance Lenoirre: :) [15:03] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): AN? [15:03] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ANS** [15:03] Lance Lenoirre: it's stuff like that, i mean, the license fully allows it, so why not make a buck [15:03] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Bot delivery system to help identify people buying Full Perm (OS) Mesh and reselling on an alt [15:04] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The person I wrote it for, buys the item(s) for the person reslling her stuff and files a DMCA with the proof of purchase and gets the accounts banned [15:05] Lance Lenoirre: that's very advanced, sounds cool, awesome you can do that with Corrade and i'm pretty sure others would be interested to have that system too [15:05] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Didn't help out Genus lol~ [15:05] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): She even gets her L$ back and gets the L$ from all the sale that the "Dummy" account got [15:05] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): jp GENUS was a different special case. [15:05] Lance Lenoirre: we considered something similar, but not to file DMCAs but rather an easier way of distributing updated marketplace items [15:06] Lance Lenoirre: so we thought to just put dummy prims in the MP listings and then have Corrade deliver the actual product, which would be updated / pulled directly off SVN/GIT [15:06] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Technically there is still a way around it, but, the system helped her file more DMCA's than ever before and actually getting Culprit(s) caught and she stopped seeing alts selling her merchandise [15:07] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It was a huge benefit for that creator [15:07] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Hmm... [15:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'd have to dig up all the old scripts and make sure it works with c11, because Kira spent weeks making the commands work on c10 [15:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But finally she released a version that did everything it needed to do [15:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Well, not Kira specifically [15:09] Lance Lenoirre: i also see this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Product-On-Rezz-Group-Inviter-Automatic-Group-Invitation-welcome-greeting/942161 so one device that someone could create would be a black-box prim that would then use a Corrade bot to send group invites :) the user would not need to set up a bot or rent a bot, you could host the bot itself and then sell the actual device [15:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But she was the Liason at the time [15:09] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: the API has not changed very much, C9/C10 -> C11 was more of a "system update", the way Corrade runs, the way Corrade is configured, native binaries and that sort of stuff, no changes to the API itself [15:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): OK, so there should be no trouble with any commands [15:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'll have to test and have the bug website open just in case [15:10] Lance Lenoirre: there should not be, no, but every command has a changelog so you can track what in the API changed... but that is very rare, we prefer to add a new command in order to not break existing scripts... [15:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It uses a lot of commands, like renaming, changing object descriptions, setting permissions, and so on [15:11] Lance Lenoirre: in what regards C11, no, it really was just a "system update" and a port to core, but it did not "revolutionize" the way you send commands or listen to notifications at all, that has been ported over 1 to 1 [15:12] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I'm hoping to see the websocket server fixed cause that's hecka helpful [15:12] Lance Lenoirre: we are aware of API breaking changes, but they're very rare, commands like "getselfdata" or others should be pretty consistent across even major versions [15:12] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: yes, i have added it to the todo list and will pass it on :) thanks for that [15:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Maybe I didn't sell it because it looks like it uses my server to issue commands because LSL was too slow [15:13] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): No problem. I'm just excited to see what Corrode as in store for future updates [15:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:13] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: as i said above, you know you can sell black-box devices right? [15:14] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Yes, I am going to look into writing the system, I have the pay terminals already, but they just say "Coming Soon" [15:14] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): What all info do you want or need for letting people know I host Corrade? [15:14] Lance Lenoirre: i mean, nobody says you cannot just sell a prim in SL that eventually uses your self-hosted Corrade bot :) [15:14] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): That would be cruel, lmao [15:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): "It will eventually work!!!" [15:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lmao [15:15] Lance Lenoirre: well why not :) you could sell a prim "group inviter", users have no clue that you're using a bot - and perhaps they shouldn't or it wouldn't be user friendly... [15:16] Lance Lenoirre: that's what i have been hinting, asychronous services, which are very easily atomized with Corrade, massive separation of concerns... [15:16] Havoc (spicystrung): @Jym: regarding API changes, you can use the built in HTTP server to run api tests. Set up the tests on your C9 bots, then run them again on C11. See what breaks. [15:16] Lance Lenoirre: the LSL scripts are separate from the bot, the bot is separate from your platform service /etc... [15:16] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Sadly, most people know what they want when buying an inviter, and they usually want a bot for the proper invite dialog [15:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I definitely need to get it done [15:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The system I wrote was c10 I think [15:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): or at least I hope [15:17] Lance Lenoirre: well that's what they get: a prim that (in the background) sends the request via your bot :) [15:17] Lance Lenoirre: but you can sell the product transparently [15:18] Lance Lenoirre: all the users see is a popup to join directly and that's all they have to care about [15:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I need to write the scripts to check the database to confirm the purchase and then accept the group invite from that user [15:18] Lance Lenoirre: on the backend you care about keeping the bot online, etc... [15:18] Lance Lenoirre: yea [15:18] Lance Lenoirre: and you sell the prim for X L$, can be very cheap and undercut the market [15:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I don't need random people inviting the bot to a group [15:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:19] Lance Lenoirre: yep, you can hard code an identifier in the LSL script, or even non readable NC [15:19] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Then I also need to consider when all the group spaces are used, some kind of load balancer to use a different bot [15:19] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): But I was also considering letting users pick the bot, like SmartBots does [15:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Whichever name they like most [15:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): for picky people [15:20] Lance Lenoirre: the "invite" command has a "target" parameter, so you could invite to multiple groups [15:20] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): NC are readable [15:20] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): well.. the object itself has to be no mod so you can't just add a script and read the nc [15:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): a No Copy notecard is not readable [15:20] Lance Lenoirre: but i guess what i mean is that the LSL script can be a black box without the users having to know all the details of the implementation [15:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I could llDialog the blackbox for them to pick a bot, based on the backbox checking a database to find the bots with groups space available [15:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's no easy task [15:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Welcome back [15:25] Lance Lenoirre: sorry, had a crash [15:25] Lance Lenoirre: thank you [15:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Internet?? Ecto went offline at the same time [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): and is back now [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:26] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ what i said [15:26] Lance Lenoirre: anything i missed? [15:26] Big Betty (corrade) is online. [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): OK... so what info should I put in a notecard to put on the website to let people know I'm still hosting Corrade [15:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I advertise on Facebook, it's had little effect but it does help [15:27] Havoc (spicystrung): I have to leave now. @Lance: many thanks for this session. Like @Jym said, I'd like to see more of those "office hours" in the future. I think it's very informative. [15:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): OK, take care Havoc [15:27] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: anything you like really, we do not mind, we are happy to offer solutions to people for whom setting up a Corrade bot is an advanced task - we frequently get support requests from non-technical people that still would like a bot so we would be happy to redirect them to an "all in one" solution, even if it is monetized [15:27] Lance Lenoirre: thank you for coming @spicystrung [15:28] Havoc (spicystrung): Bye all! [15:28] Lance Lenoirre: more office hours, noted :) thank you [15:25] [WaS] Corrade: Heads-Up Display (Drone HUD) - 2.3: Reading configuration file... [15:25] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Welcome back [15:25] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): oh here we go [15:25] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): wb [15:25] Flax (flax.quirina) is online. [15:25] [WaS] Corrade: Heads-Up Display (Drone HUD) - 2.3: Read configuration notecard... [15:25] [WaS] Corrade: Heads-Up Display (Drone HUD) - 2.3: Configuration ready... [15:25] Flax HUD: Reading configuration file... [15:25] Flax HUD: Read configuration notecard... [15:25] Flax HUD: Configuration ready... [15:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Welcome back [15:25] Lance Lenoirre: sorry, had a crash [15:25] Lance Lenoirre: thank you [15:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Internet?? Ecto went offline at the same time [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): and is back now [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:26] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ what i said [15:26] Lance Lenoirre: anything i missed? [15:26] Big Betty (corrade) is online. [15:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): OK... so what info should I put in a notecard to put on the website to let people know I'm still hosting Corrade [15:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I advertise on Facebook, it's had little effect but it does help [15:27] Havoc (spicystrung): I have to leave now. @Lance: many thanks for this session. Like @Jym said, I'd like to see more of those "office hours" in the future. I think it's very informative. [15:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): OK, take care Havoc [15:27] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: anything you like really, we do not mind, we are happy to offer solutions to people for whom setting up a Corrade bot is an advanced task - we frequently get support requests from non-technical people that still would like a bot so we would be happy to redirect them to an "all in one" solution, even if it is monetized [15:27] Lance Lenoirre: thank you for coming @spicystrung [15:28] Havoc (spicystrung): Bye all! [15:28] Lance Lenoirre: more office hours, noted :) thank you [15:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Well if anyone wants to take down my link - https://av2bot.com if they know people and I'll get a notecard typed up for Lance [15:29] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Oh, am I allowed to use the Blimp logo? if so I'll update my image n the website [15:29] Lance Lenoirre: awesome, will put it on the list to update [15:29] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): For now I'm using a freebie google robot image [15:29] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:30] Lance Lenoirre: yes, all logos and vanity items are up for grabs :) they are provided as SVG, which makes them source :) [15:30] Lance Lenoirre: and via the license, source is resourceable lol [15:31] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The only thing I limit on my hosting though is execute and system perms, no reason for outsiders to need them [15:32] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I might have allowed them if I could have figured out how to use docker [15:32] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): but I gave up [15:32] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I run it in docker I can help if you need :) [15:33] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Aphris Karu helped me for quite a while, I just couldn't get it working [15:33] Lance Lenoirre: i was not able to get to Aprhis Karu again, so she might have vanished [15:33] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): She was telling me command line for command line and it still didn't work for some reason [15:33] Lance Lenoirre: Kira told me to get in touch with her but I never managed to [15:34] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Aphris was great, I don't know what happened to her [15:34] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I have about 5 bots running in docker containers and they work. What problem were you running into? [15:34] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Is Midnight still around? [15:34] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): @n32d, I honestly can't remember now, this was 2-3 years ago befoer c11 [15:34] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): long before c11* [15:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): It's a lot easier now with c11. You just need to download the dotnet core and run ./Corrade [15:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I can send you my docker-compose template if you want? [15:35] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Maybe I'll try it out again and see what happens, I'll have to update the server [15:35] Lance Lenoirre: not sure about Midnight, perhaps that was before my time [15:36] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's unlikely I'll still allow system and execute though [15:36] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): even c10 was easy.. Just need to insall mono, and you can't use the alpine version cause you need all the depends. So you're best off using Ubuntu or openSUSE [15:37] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I use CentOS [15:37] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): centos as an base image? or host image? [15:37] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): but maybe I could toy with Docker on my Pi's [15:37] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I have a couple pis all running on pi4s and they run docker just fine [15:37] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Server primary OS is CentOS, I think Aphris used Debian [15:38] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): could be why I couldn't get it to work [15:38] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): CentOS has SE linux so it's a tad tricky you need to apply the appropriate labels [15:38] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): I am moving to Ubuntu [15:38] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm running a few Pi4 4GB and I just recently got 5x Pi4 8GB [15:39] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ^ those are the ones I run [15:39] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I got a free one from work for attending a webinar so I use that for it too. [15:39] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: you can try the aarch64 build! [15:39] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I have a "tower" stack case with distributed power to all 10 Pi's [15:39] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [15:40] Lance Lenoirre: although on core 3.1 it was not working properly so we had it removed [15:40] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): 1 Plug instead of 10 [15:40] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I dont use the pi images because i run other stuff too but it was nice to see that it was added as a feature [15:41] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Wife was getting mad I had 5 Pi's taking up 5 outlets, so I needed to Conserve, but I told her I needed 5 more Pi's to get it down to 1 plug [15:41] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): With all my dev work being containerized it's a bit rough switching to someone's custom image [15:41] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Haha I can only imagine [15:41] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm using the RVM on the 4GB Pi's it works great [15:42] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I manually installed corrade on 3 of the 8GB Pi's though [15:42] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): and 2 are video/music servers for my house [15:42] Lance Lenoirre: lol, you need to use sa splitter! :D [15:42] Lance Lenoirre: have you seen you can build a Pi rack? [15:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I got a really cool case on Amazon that holds 10 Pi's with a power distribution block to use only 1 outlet [15:43] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): You could say it's a Pi Rack [15:43] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Oh I seen something liekthat [15:45] Lance Lenoirre: i've seen they have rack mountable gear [15:45] Lance Lenoirre: it's a rack tray cut to shape, so you can slide and take out PIs, with a harness that plugs into the GPIO pins [15:45] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I love the accessories they keep making for the Pis [15:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): 2 of mi 8GB Pi's use NVMe SSD's [15:46] greyhat Newman: o did you get those nvme thngies [15:46] greyhat Newman: any good [15:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): the rest I left using the SD card since they don't need much storage [15:46] greyhat Newman: mine all have ssd [15:46] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The Speed of NVMe is second to none [15:47] Lance Lenoirre: wonder how that works, how does the NVME hook to the Pi, via the GPIO ports or the SD card? [15:47] Lance Lenoirre: hello @greyhat [15:47] greyhat Newman: hello [15:47] greyhat Newman: to you and the rest as well [15:47] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): external slots? [15:47] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): The adater I bought is powered by the GPIO and uses a USB 3.0 port [15:47] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): GPIO power allows the USB 3.0 port for purely data [15:48] greyhat Newman: how fas os it ? [15:48] greyhat Newman: hiya fabled [15:48] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Not as fast as the one in my desktop, but it's faster than the SD and a normal SSD [15:48] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): hihi! [15:48] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Not sure how to speed test on a Pi [15:48] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): for data rates [15:49] greyhat Newman: the ssd runs pretty well on usb 3 [15:49] greyhat Newman: is it faster [15:49] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): probably max speed of the USB 3 port though [15:49] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Since it's not usng it for power [15:49] greyhat Newman: new wheel fabel ? [15:49] Lance Lenoirre: hello @Fabled [15:49] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Yeahhh! x3 [15:49] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): heyhey [15:49] greyhat Newman: heheheh [15:49] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Good to see you again Grey :) [15:49] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Duck too [15:50] greyhat Newman: yeah been long while [15:50] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Speed is probably same as your ssd's because of the usb port limitations [15:50] greyhat Newman: yeah figures [15:50] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): but the NVMe takes up way less space [15:50] greyhat Newman: true ish i suspect [15:51] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): it's tiny in comparison [15:51] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): like 1inch x 3inches [15:51] greyhat Newman: :) [15:51] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): a few mm thick [15:51] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): bbs! (afk's temporarily) [15:52] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I think the backwards NERD fell asleep? [15:53] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I just now realized that was the display name [15:53] Lance Lenoirre: anyone looking into IoT with Corrade? had a question in the group [15:53] greyhat Newman is online. [15:53] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Nope, no idea what it is [15:55] Lance Lenoirre: internet of things, like talking to Alexa and making your Corrade bot do stuff in SL [15:56] greyhat Newman: i messed with making alexa on a pi zero [15:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I could see it's uses [15:56] greyhat Newman: i didt think of adding it to corrade [15:56] greyhat Newman: explain some uses ? [15:56] Lance Lenoirre: https://grimore.org/secondlife/scripted_agents/corrade/projects/external_services/iot [15:56] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Land Barons for example [15:57] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Tell your bot to go restart a sim in the middle of the night [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: we were talking about home automation using Corrade [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: yes @Jym [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: like "Alexa, restart my sim" [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: and Corrade goes ahead and does it [15:57] greyhat Newman: lol duh txs [15:57] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I can see the uses and beneifts for that case [15:57] greyhat Newman: and its bloody useful also [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: the link above is a mock viewer created in Node-Red and some Javascript [15:57] Lance Lenoirre: all it does is interact with the Corrade MQTT server [15:58] Lance Lenoirre: you can teleport the bot around, talk on local chat, download the map, renders avatars on the map, etc. [15:59] greyhat Newman: nice , ok its midning here so going zzz will there be a transcript of this chat ? [15:59] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): mock viewer on what? browser? [15:59] Lance Lenoirre: yes, hopefully we'll publish the transcript via some means [15:59] Lance Lenoirre: @Jym: yes :) [15:59] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): That would be awesome [15:59] Lance Lenoirre: let me get a screenshot [15:59] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Sorry I afk'd trying to get my nvim setup into containers [16:00] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I've successfully got my Echo Studio to interact with SL, not so much Corrade though I think I'll try that next [16:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): what's nvim?? a variation of Vi? [16:00] greyhat Newman: i managed to get my beer in some [16:00] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): nvim is neovim, basically better vim which uses lua [16:00] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): ewww Lua [16:01] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): you don't have to use lua lol, just the lsp is incredibly fast now [16:01] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I didn't think from switching from an vimrc to lua would have such an impact but dang.. it's blazing quick [16:01] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): especially runing on pis [16:02] Lance Lenoirre: uploading [16:02] Lance Lenoirre: @n32d: yes, that sort of thing, it's very easy with some javascript and node-red [16:03] Lance Lenoirre: https://scratch.grimore.org/3y7tuv1v [16:03] Lance Lenoirre: so this is the dashboard view of node-red [16:04] Lance Lenoirre: i can teleport the bot by selecting the landmark from the dropdown [16:04] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): That's awesome [16:04] Lance Lenoirre: the Corrade Local is obviously local chat [16:04] Lance Lenoirre: a RAM and memory gauge [16:04] greyhat Newman: yes it is [16:04] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I thought using the http chat functions were great [16:05] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): that's like an all-in-one dashboard [16:05] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:05] Lance Lenoirre: and the backend [16:05] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Load it up on a shared media HUD for your avatar and enjoy [16:05] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:05] greyhat Newman is offline. [16:06] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): throw in a little JQuery to group tabbing [16:06] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): for** grp tabbing [16:06] Lance Lenoirre: this is what powers it: https://scratch.grimore.org/zjxorj6z [16:07] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): ugh nodes,,, [16:07] Lance Lenoirre: if you've been scripting with Corrade, you can tell what is what :) [16:07] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Yes [16:07] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): reminds me of rpa [16:07] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It looks like the software I use to use for android app development [16:08] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): unity? [16:08] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): oh.. wait that's for games lol~ sorry android studio does that too [16:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Oh speaking of android app development, I managed to get corrade running on my Galaxy Note 8 [16:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): That was a fun project [16:08] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's c10 though [16:09] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'll have to see if I can get c11 to work [16:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): the linux arm package should work if I can get .net core to install [16:10] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): it took days getting mono to work [16:10] Lance Lenoirre: you can try both aarch64 and arm now [16:10] Lance Lenoirre: but there should not be a difference [16:11] Lance Lenoirre: on aarch64, the OS can address more than 2GB at a time, but that would mean Corrade requesting instantly more than 2GiB of RAM [16:11] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Well the phone is flashed to use Debian if that makes a difference [16:11] Lance Lenoirre: which is highly unlikely :) [16:11] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): and I think it has 6GB Ram [16:12] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): but it's running debian like a virtual machine so to speak [16:12] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): the core OS is still android [16:12] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Been like 2 years since I messed with it, but the bot is still online [16:12] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:13] Lance Lenoirre: apt-get install dotnet-host [16:13] Lance Lenoirre: is probably all you need, had to look it up though [16:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Probably, I do know getting mono to work was a nightmare [16:13] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I literally spent hours per day for several days making it work [16:13] Lance Lenoirre: we never tested the aarch64 builds though, they should work now with net5.0 [16:13] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): According to the Microsoft website the apt-get install dotnet-host is only for amd64 [16:14] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): nor aarch64 cause it ends up failing saying there's no system arch that matches [16:14] Lance Lenoirre: or: apt-get install dotnet-runtime-5.0 to install .net5.0, it should pull the rest of dependencies [16:15] Lance Lenoirre: on debian, AFAIK, if the package is provided, then it installs the correct arch, there is multi-architecture, say, if you have x64 but want to install 32 bit software but those packages are usually tagged with "32" in them [16:15] Lance Lenoirre: in any case, not an expert on Linux [16:15] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm no expert in Debian based [16:16] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): I know they recently dropped the "get" but still support it. apt install [16:16] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I knwo my red hat distros wuite well though [16:16] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Or maybe I just like the word "yum" [16:16] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): yum or pacman [16:16] Lance Lenoirre: i've seen that the official RaspiOS image is really just 32 bit, the aarch64 is still in development or "experiemental" [16:17] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Yeah because a lot of stuff hasn't come out for aarch64 [16:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Yes official is still 32 bit [16:17] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I keep waiting for an official version of 64 bit [16:17] Lance Lenoirre: okay, good, so we're ahead of schedule, lol [16:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm hoping that Microsoft figure out the issues with 64 but on Arm processors soon [16:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): bit* [16:18] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): You can only use 32 bit software currently [16:18] Lance Lenoirre: Corrade on net3.1 compiled to aarch64 did not work, it compiled to a bad image, but with net5.0 that issue should be now resolved [16:19] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I bought a Samsung Galaxy Book 2, has Arm with a 64 Bit Windows 10, but it won't run 64 bit software [16:19] Lance Lenoirre: it's an elegant but difficult toolchain, have to compile for every architecture in part [16:19] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Worst purchase of my life, I should sell it [16:19] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): It's pretty much a knock off of the Microsoft Surface, but the price was decent, I liked it for a few days until I tried installing a 64 bit app [16:20] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): haven't touched it in over 2 years, just collects dust [16:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): probably doesn't even work anymore [16:21] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I could mount it to my wall and use it for Corrade [16:21] Lance Lenoirre: like the story about the cheap iphone knockoff that looks like iOS but reboots with a samsung logo lol [16:22] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I never thought I'd call a product of Samsung a knock off, but truthfully the Galaxy Book 2 is a wannabe Surface [16:22] Lance Lenoirre: in what regards Corrade, it's really overkill, i've rarely seen Corrade go past the 100MiB mark [16:23] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I should have done my research, the Galaxy Book 1 had an i5 and 8GB Ram the Book 2 has an Arm with 4GB Ram [16:23] Lance Lenoirre: right now one of the bots I am using is sitting on a sim where messages get sent on local chat every few milliseconds and the CPU is not going about 2% and that's for quad core [16:23] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I seen the number 2 and bought it [16:23] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:24] Lance Lenoirre: 2021-05-29 23:23:40,766 DEBUG Corrade - Debug : Received local chat message : rlvlocalchatrelay : b740a8e6-7d30-4308-f256-f006538b46b6 : Ground Glytch: Eyebulbs Rare: heard WhereIsTheGlytch? on iGlytchChannel 2021-05-29 23:23:40,787 DEBUG Corrade - Debug : Received local chat message : rlvlocalchatrelay : b740a8e6-7d30-4308-f256-f006538b46b6 : Ground Glytch: Frostees Common: heard WhereIsTheGlytch? on iGlytchChannel [16:24] Lance Lenoirre: i don't know why people write scripts like that [16:24] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ok I'm back [16:24] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Sounds like it's a sniffer script [16:24] Lance Lenoirre: every 20ms, some item on the sim is spamming the local channels, imagine the load on the region [16:25] Lance Lenoirre: welcome back Fabled [16:25] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ty! [16:25] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): wb [16:25] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): tyty! [16:25] Lance Lenoirre: just very happy that even if Corrade senses the messages, it does not use much CPU, it is well below 2% for 4 cores [16:26] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Aren't Pi's quad? [16:26] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): The bigger ones are yeah [16:26] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): and newer ones [16:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Pi4 4GB [16:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): and Pi4 8GB [16:27] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): My bots use like 3% on the Pi4's [16:27] Lance Lenoirre: on the topic of opensource, coming back a little, we're planning to release a controller / chat application for Windows, it will connect to Corrade via MQTT but the application will be standalone and it will be open, so if anyone feels like chiming in, we're happy for contributions :) [16:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'm wanting that node red [16:28] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): lol [16:28] Lance Lenoirre: oh that one is ... opensource too! [16:28] Lance Lenoirre: mainly takes installing node-red [16:28] Lance Lenoirre: and required packages [16:28] Lance Lenoirre: https://grimore.org/secondlife/scripted_agents/corrade/projects/external_services/iot and then importing this flow [16:29] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'd definitely want to dive in to that, add some JQuery to allow tabbed group messaging [16:29] Lance Lenoirre: node-red is more about, programming without writing code, the was* family of functions were used, but in many ways it's as simple as connecting boxes [16:29] Lance Lenoirre: so it does not allow you full control over the display / UI, but it organizes stuff for you depending on parameters [16:30] Lance Lenoirre: the map overlay, the local chat and all of that are mainly provided by node-red and some addons [16:30] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Ah so the node red portion is just a drag and drop thing I'd likely have to use as a backend and create a front end [16:31] Lance Lenoirre: you can connect Alexa: https://scratch.grimore.org/gh0k1wiu [16:31] Lance Lenoirre: more or less yes! [16:31] Lance Lenoirre: the backend is dragging boxes, the UI displays ... well boxes that are UI boxes :D [16:32] Lance Lenoirre: so you could say: "Alexa, restart the sim", the Alexa node will feed into a node that has "command=..." and that would be sent to Corrade's MQTT server [16:32] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I have to go, definitely let us know if there will be more office hours, hopefully I'll see it in Discord or someone can send a group notice or something [16:32] Lance Lenoirre: i have it noted down, thanks for coming @Jym, will defnitely schedule another office hour [16:33] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): Sounds good, thanks for staying so long and answering questions [16:33] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Yeah, you should see if you can get the office hours mentioned in gropu notices [16:33] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): take care folks [16:33] Lance Lenoirre: yes, there has been a request for an advertisement-only group, for notices, and people that do not wish to use Discord, so I have that down too [16:33] Lance Lenoirre: take care @jym :) [16:33] Ĵyм Иøνค (jym.nova): I'll get a notecard sent over with LM and potential services offered" [16:34] Lance Lenoirre: please do! [16:34] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): *CENSORED* I just forkbombed myself lol [16:35] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): x3 [16:35] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): Got to love lua [16:35] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): lua? [16:36] Lance Lenoirre: okay so, so far i've got: 1.) office hours, more office hours 2.) Nucleus and password prompt removals 3.) upcoming RLV removal 4.) create an SL announcement group - anything missing? [16:36] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): nvim can use lua and I accidentally wrote plugins.lua with a folder named plugins and then called require plugins which can mean either other but in the one file i opened plugins qwhich cause it to crash [16:36] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): websocket [16:36] Lance Lenoirre: websockets yes! that was first on the list [16:37] Lance Lenoirre: recently there has been a bug reported about "tell" not working properly on the recent builds, as far as i know, it has been fixed today [16:37] Lance Lenoirre: it was shaving off every last character [16:38] Lance Lenoirre: turned out to be an upstream bug so we filed it with M$, in the meanwhile, we found a way around it and an even better way [16:38] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Ohhh are you one of the corrade devs? [16:38] Lance Lenoirre: yes [16:38] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Gosh [16:38] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I figured all the grimoire people were mysterious and disappeared x3 [16:38] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Nice to meet you :) [16:39] Lance Lenoirre: otherwise, i personally love the new format :) no more dlls allover the place, just relevant files [16:39] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: nice to meet you too, we've had a change in management [16:39] Lance Lenoirre: so you can clean up after upgrading, save Configuration.xml and Nucleus.xml and then wipe evertyhing [16:40] Lance Lenoirre: also an old bug reported by Duck, i think has been resolved where XMLs were not properly verified against XSDs [16:40] Lance Lenoirre: now even the cache files are verified [16:44] Lance Lenoirre: perhaps a novelty, we're going to release a small viewer thingamajibs, it has just chatting right now: https://scratch.grimore.org/0fiv51sf [16:44] Lance Lenoirre: but perhaps it will evolve further [16:44] Lance Lenoirre: it will be, opensource indeed [16:44] Lance Lenoirre: it connects to Corrade via MQTT [16:45] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I actually have a friend working on a C# viewer project, could link you two up if interested in chatting [16:45] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): They're not basing on libomv though [16:46] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): That looks like it could really be useful [16:47] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): http://bugs.grimore.org/ used to show everyones reports .. why was that locked down to just seeing my own reports? [16:49] Lance Lenoirre: oh i see, well we have our own fork of libomv, quite frankly at this point it does not look much like libomv anymore, there have been massive refactorings going on but we do contribute to libremetaverse [16:50] Lance Lenoirre: @Duck: 1.) we found that some users have been hijacking other user's support tickets 2.) a lot of data that is shared whenever there is a bug report is confidential, we found various instances where the bug reports themselves could be used to harvest user data [16:50] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): I see ok [16:51] Lance Lenoirre: the reports can be joined though, so if there is a related issue, we can bring them together if necessary [16:51] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): Yeah for sure [16:53] Lance Lenoirre: a lot of bug reports contained "Configuration.xml" in various forms of censorship :) some returing reporters were still using the same hashes :) once we figured that out, we found that it would be a liability for our users so we made every bug report individual [16:54] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): Will you sit back on commands that return an avatar's position in the world? Currently API Corrade commands return up to a certain height. Yes, you can use the notifications as a workaround. My point is that those commands should be able to fully accurately return the avatar's position in the world again. Perhaps this has been resolved in libremetaverse. [16:54] Lance Lenoirre: @NitroPL, there is no viewer that can accurately report the positions of avatars without having land rights... [16:54] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I don't think libomv ever had a problem getting people's position? [16:55] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I might have been thinking of something else but I recall getting pos ages ago [16:55] Lance Lenoirre: above a certain altitude, the position gets cut off @Fabled [16:55] Lance Lenoirre: there is no viewer that will display Z to be 1 million [16:55] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Ohh [16:55] Lance Lenoirre: which is possible in SL [16:56] Lance Lenoirre: the reason thereof, as we understand it, is that SL is a visual-based experience and not meant for pulling data like Corrade does [16:56] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Even if the viewer doesn't show it, if the sim returns it libomv should see it [16:56] Lance Lenoirre: that's the key issue, the sim will not report it [16:56] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ahh [16:56] Lance Lenoirre: SL is a visual experience, viewers are meant to, well, see stuff and do whatever, but SL is not designed to pull consistent data... [16:57] Lance Lenoirre: requesting groups of an avatar, for example, is one such example, where group entires are returned but there is no "this is the end marker" [16:57] Lance Lenoirre: it just stops when it stops [16:57] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Yeah I see a lot of async reliant stuff [16:58] Lance Lenoirre: and the main reason is that the viewer is adding entries to that text box as the groups come in :) and it does not care about being "reliable"... [16:58] Lance Lenoirre: but they are right, Linden is right, this is not a data-driven world, it's a visual experience... [16:58] Lance Lenoirre: if you were to account for all avatars and exact positions, exact data for groups, it would be much slower [16:59] Lance Lenoirre: the only way i know to get more precise avatar positions is via estate rights [16:59] Lance Lenoirre: and for estate rights, it is justified, because an estate manager should be able to manage the sim [16:59] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): You could probably use an lsl bridge [16:59] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): There's some data lsl has access to that the viewer doesn't [17:00] Lance Lenoirre: llSensor, llSensorRepeat? that is radar, Corrade has radar, you could try your luck and set the draw distance to 1million meters :D [17:00] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Nah you would get request avatar data [17:00] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: with which LSL command? [17:00] Lance Lenoirre: i highly doubt there is an LSL command that will report all the avatars up to 1 million altitude and beyond :) [17:01] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I think its llRequestAgentData iirc [17:01] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): who knows, but lsl integers are 4 bytes [17:01] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): no that's not the right one [17:01] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): lemme see- I used to use it for sim wide radars [17:01] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): llSensor, llSensorRepeat you won't use in PHP code, and that's where I mainly fix the position for my avatar ... If he wanted to determine the position of the avatar in the LSL, I would not broach this thread. [17:01] Lance Lenoirre: that's why prim scanners exist :) [17:02] Lance Lenoirre: https://grimore.org/secondlife/region_scanner [17:02] Lance Lenoirre: we've made a region scanner [17:02] Lance Lenoirre: before [17:02] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Might be this [17:02] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetObjectDetails OBJECT_POS [17:02] Lance Lenoirre: but like all other region scanners in SL, it uses micro probes to scan the region for items [17:03] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): okay, but tell me what is the general solution to using this, eg in php, python, whenever you query your bot for localization. [17:04] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I'm all for if I can get better data through corrade or libomv, I don't like adding extra protocols [17:04] Lance Lenoirre: the best solution that i know of is estate rights or parcel rights [17:04] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Like one I really wish was built-in is raycasting [17:04] Lance Lenoirre: and that is because those users are _meant_ to see the data [17:04] Lance Lenoirre: there is no reason for every random avatar to be able to see 1 million meters away :) in LL's view, if you need to do that, you're probably "playing" SL wrong [17:05] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): sory about that I ended up crashing lol~ [17:05] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Welcome Back [17:05] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ♪ Welcome back! Welcome back! Welcome back! ♪ [17:05] Lance Lenoirre: wb [17:05] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): ty ty [17:05] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I gotta watch that show sometime [17:05] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Welcome Back Kotter [17:06] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): @Lance, yes, it is best for the bot to have access to the entire region right away, but note that not all bots work in the entire region, but only in the rented plot. [17:07] Lance Lenoirre: yes, but that's the philosophy of SL, i guess, otherwise if any avatar could see at 1 million meters range, the amount of data that would have to be transferred between the game client and the server would overwhelm any connection [17:07] Lance Lenoirre: imagine looking out on mainland in a 1 million meter range... [17:07] Lance Lenoirre: every single nano prim would have to be sent to your viewer [17:07] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I remember when the protocol changed to require you to focus your camera in a direction to get object data [17:08] Lance Lenoirre: yes, of course! [17:08] Lance Lenoirre: imagine the data being transferred, every nano prim with textures and what not :D [17:08] Lance Lenoirre: in a 1 million meter radius [17:08] Lance Lenoirre: that's entire GB/s of data [17:08] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): You only get a small piece of data, you have to request the rest like.. the name, but yeah that'd be heavy anyway [17:08] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled yes, properties of objects [17:09] Lance Lenoirre: even so, it would be heavy [17:09] Lance Lenoirre: but i guess this is an LL design issue [17:09] Lance Lenoirre: SL is really meant to be "played" where avatars can see up to say, 64 meters, dance and whatever... [17:09] Lance Lenoirre: it's not meant for someone to pull and query data like you do a database... [17:10] Lance Lenoirre: now Corrade does that :) but even so, it is very difficult to do so [17:11] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): max. height is 4096 m, not 1 million ;) max. number of avatars per region is 100. I am used 'getmapavatarpositions' command which returned their positions very fast... ;) [17:11] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Is it? o.o [17:11] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): brb [17:11] Lance Lenoirre: no it's not [17:11] Lance Lenoirre: you can go up to 1 million meters Nitro [17:11] Lance Lenoirre: someone did that like 10 years ago [17:11] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): height? [17:11] Lance Lenoirre: that might be the build height [17:12] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I saw aliens at 7k, they were eating human brains [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: haha [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZC7jN0QjCQ [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: there were some videos of people doing that [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: going up to 1mio+ meters and seeing how messed up the viewer becomes [17:12] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): hah neat x3 [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5gj81GBQcU [17:12] Lance Lenoirre: back from 2007 [17:13] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): But that was from 8 years ago, didn't they patch it in Second Life? [17:13] Lance Lenoirre: and i doubt llGetObjectPos will show you that - you made me curious though [17:13] Lance Lenoirre: @NitroPL: it's not a bug, why patch it? it's easy to dothough [17:14] Lance Lenoirre: just went to 8000m [17:14] Lance Lenoirre: and rezzed a platform [17:14] Lance Lenoirre: will not try 1m :D it's settled for me [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): So did you see that ebook that one guy wrote [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): for libomv [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): mushroomwhat [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): er [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): not libomv [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): corrade [17:16] ıllıllı DЯΞИ ıllıllı (n32d): lol~ he's standing behind you [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): that mushroom took me off track xD [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): oh no way [17:16] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): You know, my main point is to get the exact location of the bot in the region and nothing else. I don't think I will use LSL commands in PHP. So I will have to try to get the information [17:16] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Nitro you're the ebook writer? [17:16] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: but food for thought, it would be interesting to see what happens llGetRegionPos of an avatar that is at 1million meters.... [17:17] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): @Fabled, yes [17:17] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Right on, I'm glad someone is keeping the bot info alive [17:17] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Good on you for making it free too, you could have just as easily sold it x3 its well organized [17:18] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Lance: Oh geez I'd be impressed if it does [17:18] Lance Lenoirre: @NitroPL: unfortunately, aside from estate rights, and even with estate rights, i do not think anything would report the altitude of an avatar correctly, probably some of the underlying datastructures are short or byte based such that it would not even be possible for SL to store that [17:18] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): @Fabled: I am happy about it, but you know, one day they are up-to-date, and the next some of them are not, because something in the software has changed. But this is a normal process. A PDF eBook can always be refreshed. The forests are saved. [17:18] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): The sim is position authoritative, the viewer shouldn't be able to get to 1m without the sim sending 1m values back right? [17:19] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Got a link again? Or a page? I'll be handing out to friends [17:19] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: as long as the sim is not queried for the position, i guess the viewer can do whatever it likes [17:20] Lance Lenoirre: but i don't think the sim will report it, it will be for sure capped at something like 4096 which is the build height [17:21] Lance Lenoirre: this is why i explained to @Nitro that in SL, getting an accurate position, simply was not a design goal of SL [17:21] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): @Lance That's why I said that I would have to mess around, either by using some sort of notification or by combining LSL-PHP (I already have something like this done with a different command). [17:22] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I still get a kick out of that bot's name being big betty [17:22] Lance Lenoirre: there are various approximations that i know about: map positions (getavatarsmap) those are clusters of avatars, getavatarpositions which is limited on the Z axis, radar as in flying the bot around and seeing what it picks up at a given draw distance and estate/parcel rights that might be more accurate since an estate manager /parcel manager NEEDs the data [17:23] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): But this is very strange, because even a FirestormViewer somehow obtains its exact location, I have information about the distance from me to other avatars ... Maybe something in libom got mixed up because it wasn't a problem in the past. [17:23] Lance Lenoirre: @Nitro: i would look into something like: https://grimore.org/secondlife/region_scanner that uses probes, it rezzes on temp a few probes and floats up into the sky as far as it can go, scanning the region for avatars and prims [17:23] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Ooh you know what would be fun in addition to office hours- and maybe help other people get on board- let people list their bot projects somewhere [17:23] Lance Lenoirre: @NitroPL: okay, if i go up right now at 20k meters, can you check what your viwer says? [17:24] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: people are encouraged to do so, we advertise for free, this is a nice example: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Sleds-and-Toboggans-NPC-Friendly-Game/13561877 [17:24] Lance Lenoirre: @Nitro: ready? [17:26] Lance Lenoirre: @Fabled: we advertise for anyone wishing to display, commercialize their project or even offer rent-a-bot [17:26] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ooooh cool [17:26] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): I have some bot projects I've thought of commercializing but had no idea where to advertise [17:26] Lance Lenoirre: there is also an AI: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/CORRADE-GO-Home-Brain-BOXED/18068888 [17:27] Lance Lenoirre: if they're related to Corrade, we can always place them on our site, or you can sell them on MP [17:27] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): oooh ok [17:28] Lance Lenoirre: the source may be closed but the license is permissive, anyone can commercialize as they see fit without problem [17:28] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): @Lance, ready, but share you print screen with your position, and I share screen what FirestormViewer say ;) Test for 10-15 sec. [17:29] Lance Lenoirre: @Nitro: lets go to a sandbox after the meeting and test [17:29] NitroPL (nitro2012pl): ok [17:29] Lance Lenoirre: well, folks, it's been more than 5 hours since this meeting started :) [17:29] Lance Lenoirre: if you're okay with it, i'd like to end [17:29] Lance Lenoirre: we'll organize more in the future [17:30] ᴅᴜᴄᴋ 'ɴᴅʀᴀɴɢʜᴇᴛᴀ (duck.seoung): ^^ Thanks for having it [17:30] Lance Lenoirre: thanks for coming! :) [17:30] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): ty fo hosting! [17:30] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): *fo [17:30] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): *for [17:30] Lance Lenoirre: ty :) [17:31] Lance Lenoirre: we'll hold on to this place [17:31] Lance Lenoirre: seems peaceful enough [17:31] Lance Lenoirre: take care everyone [17:31] Fabled Tragic (fabled.magic): Yeah!